jdm314: This is AMERICA: Speak ENGLISH!

The Mad Latinist (

jdm314) wrote,
@ 2008-03-22 14:48:00

Current mood:	annoyed
Entry tags:	english, mandatory language, speak english

This is AMERICA: Speak ENGLISH!
I think I've posted about this kind of thing before. Such signs seem pointless: if someone orders in the wrong language, either your staff understands or they don't. If they don't understand they don't understand, nothing to be done about that really. If they do understand, why should they pretend they don't just to prove a point? Worse, why should that be company policy?

I'm guessing the real issue is that such businesses probably employ a lot of Hispanic workers, who might actually be inclined to understand orders given in Spanish. Then all hell breaks loose, I guess.

But really, when I see such stories, my reaction is to want to invest in a sign that says "SPEAK any language but ENGLISH!"

(Post a new comment)

thecanuckguy
2008-03-22 09:19 pm UTC (link)

But this isn't "America". I don't know of such a place called "America". The country that the shop is located in is called the "United States", why is it that only the über-patriotic call that country "America"? *That's* my main annoyance, but the language thing also fries my hash too.

I don't see too many signs like that here in Canada (might be due to our official bilingualism, but I doubt it (which reminds me of a joke I heard a Canadian comic say: "So English and French are our *official* languages? So all other languages are now *unofficial*? So, for example, if you write a contract in, say Italian, it would be illegal? Well, chances are ... ")). I've noticed several businesses (mainly ones that serve customers, and especially important ones like hospitals) who employ people speaking every language you can think of.

If I was a cunning linguist like you are, I'd go to that place and order in Latin. Or Yiddish. Or Ancient Egyptian. Just to piss them off.

("My nipples explode with delight!")

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	sonjaaa 2008-03-22 09:30 pm UTC (link)
	People in the USA like to think they own the whole continent. (Reply to this)(Parent)

kinkyturtle
2008-03-22 10:19 pm UTC (link)

To be precise, the full name of this country is "The United States of America", which can be shortened to either "the United States" or "America". "America" by itself isn't really the name of anything else. This whole continent is called "North America", the one across the Equator is "South America", in between is "Central America", and all three landmasses taken together are "the Americas".

If anything, the problem is a lack of imagination in naming things. Kinda like how "Hawaii" means either the U.S. state comprising the entire group of islands, or just the largest island.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

thecanuckguy
2008-03-22 11:22 pm UTC (link)

It can be shortened to either "the United States", or "America", or even "the US", or "USA". You can do anything you want to shorten - you can shorten the name of the neighbour to the south, the United Mexican States, to "the United States" if you want, but it would be confusing.

You raise a good point about Hawaii, but "Hawaii" is the official name of the state, and the official name of the "Big Island". "America" is the official name of nothing (same a few towns in the US).

As far as I know, the official short name of the country that the shop is located in (and I believe that "official short form names" are selected by governments) is "United States", the official long form is "United States of America". "America" is neither.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

keeper1st
2008-03-23 09:27 am UTC (link)

Speaking of official things, the U.S. has no official language. That's what irks me about people who make signs or say things like the one in question.

Just because the guys who founded the country spoke English doesn't mean everyone has to speak it, just as the fact that they were some form of Christian doesn't mean everyone has to be Christian. They were very careful about these things -- the last point in particular.

The U.S. certainly lost sight of that second point in the 20th century, with adding "In God We Trust" to money and the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. Christians argue that the Declaration of Independence specifically mentions "the creator", but they are wrong. It mentions "their creator" in reference to all men being created equal. That in no way implies the Christian view of a single "Creator of Everything". If that's what the Founding Fathers meant, they would have gone ahead and used the G word. On the contrary, could be the Stork, their own parents, or Flooblepuss the Creator of Men -- whatever a man calls his "creator". Coming to the continent as they did to escape religious persecution, they were very mindful indeed of building a country where religion played no part in government.

But I digress...

(Reply to this)(Parent)

jdm314
2008-03-22 10:24 pm UTC (link)

But this isn't "America". I don't know of such a place called "America". The country that the shop is located in is called the "United States", why is it that only the über-patriotic call that country "America"? *That's* my main annoyance, but the language thing also fries my hash too.

Hmm, interesting you should say that. The first time I met you in person I was very careful not to refer to inhabitants of the United States as Americans, but you and your wife told me more-or-less that you were quite happy to let the U.S. have that word, and you didn't like beng included in the category of "Americans" even if it was strictly accurate.

Though I suppose I may have misunderstood your point.

Of course US English has no alternate term for états-unien or estadounidense that avoids this problem (neither, unfortunately, does Latin). I am aware that in international English many people say "United States American," or "U.S. American," but this construction is so unknown in the U.S. that even very intelligent people mocked Miss Teen South Carolina for daring to use such a silly made-up term.

And yes, if confronted with such a sign I may well react as you suggest. Unless I'm really hungre.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

thecanuckguy
2008-03-22 11:39 pm UTC (link)

Hmm, interesting you should say that. The first time I met you in person I was very careful not to refer to inhabitants of the United States as Americans, but you and your wife told me more-or-less that you were quite happy to let the U.S. have that word, and you didn't like beng included in the category of "Americans" even if it was strictly accurate.

Though I suppose I may have misunderstood your point.

You do misunderstand my point somewhat. I have no problem with the use of the demonym "American", it fits better than "Unitedstatesian", "Usonian", "Statesman", etc., all of which have been proposed but rarely used. However, just because you're an "American" doesn't mean you live in "America"; I'm a "Canadian", but I don't live in "Canadia". ;) So I don't mind the demonym "American" for you Yankees, and I don't like being included in the category "American", even though I realize it's technically accurate, because of the widespread incorrect perception that "American" = "citizen of the US".

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	jdm314 2008-03-22 11:55 pm UTC (link)
	Ah! OK. Thanks for the clarification. That's more or less how I handle it when writing for Vicipaedia actually. (One of the proposals for a neutral adjective in Latin is likewise Usanus, btw) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	thecanuckguy 2008-03-23 01:29 am UTC (link)
	"Usanus". That'll get as many giggles as the name of the seventh planet in our solar system (and spelled very similar). However, it would explain why so many assholes (George W. Bush, Dick Chaney, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, etc.) come from there. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

kinkyturtle
2008-03-23 12:07 am UTC (link)

I think what rubbed me the wrong way was your suggestion that only super-patriots call it "America". That's not true. I've heard lots of sensible people call it "America" as easily as "The United States" for years.

I'm against "English-only" policies too; they tend to be divisive and bigoted. But I don't see what that has to do with whether the country is called "America" or not.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

thecanuckguy
2008-03-23 01:24 am UTC (link)

Probably because you're in the country, I don't hear as many Americans as you do, and, to me anyways, it *seems* like the more "super-patriots" call it "America". ("America: Love it or Leave It") The name of the country has nothing to do with the English-only policy (which I believe I stated I'm against too), I just ranted on another topic that's a peeve of mine that came up from reading the article (although "This is the United States: Speak ENGLISH!" doesn't have the same forceful ring to it). Probably because I'm a geography geek (and hence geography purist) has something to do with it. (I get off in the same rant mode when people call the UK "England" or the USSR "Russia", geography purist at work. They are, however, more wrong than someone calling the US "America".)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

jdm314
2008-03-23 02:32 am UTC (link)

The distribution is nowhere near as fixed as that. I suppose such people might say "America" more often than the public at large, but it's subtle enough that I wouldn't even have thought of it. But for instance when I speak to Canadians, Spaniards and so on, I'm usually more careful to say United States, but that probably wouldn't occur to a lot of people. To the unworldly bigots of whom you speak, the very idea that saying "America" instead of "United States" might give offense is probably in itself offensive. So if they even knew the difference they might deliberately say "America" just to show you who's boss.

But that would be a ridiculously specific case. Generally "America" is just considered a less formal synonym for "The United States of America." (And as KT points out, when people mean "the continent", as sonjaaa puts it, they'll say "North America," "South America" or "The Americas." Does anyone refer to the New World as "America" with no other qualifier anymore?)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kinkyturtle 2008-03-23 06:05 am UTC (link)
	I don't think so. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sonjaaa 2008-03-22 09:29 pm UTC (link)
	http://xkcd.com/84/ (Reply to this)

	varro 2008-03-22 09:35 pm UTC (link)
	I wonder what they'd say to old Italian people who don't speak English well... And I like the gratuitous use of quotation marks. Maybe that guy needs to learn English grammar himself... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	jdm314 2008-03-22 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	I do recall having it explained to me, possibly even by a lawyer, that such quotation marks effectively mean "this is company policy, not just a suggestion, slogan, or nice thought." But if you're complaining about it, then I presume that formulation has no basis in the law? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	varro 2008-03-23 03:04 am UTC (link)
	Nope. The quotation marks are improperly used for emphasis. Quotes are only properly used in a situation like this for slogans.... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	wisclassic 2008-03-23 12:12 am UTC (link)
	Even reading the comments to your journal get my ire up. I ventured over there and think my spleen might have exploded. mutters to self (Reply to this)

spidersweb
2008-05-19 09:35 pm UTC (link)

I've ended up over here as a result of finding Quislibet's Latin for Gamers page (from a search for songs in Latin, oddly enough), and I've enjoyed reading the public entries. I'd love to read what you've written about ROME (and curious as to your nitpicks, as I feel I see only two kinds of reactions to the series from Classicists), and like to add you to my Friends List.

Licetne mihi?

Edited at 2008-05-19 09:36 pm UTC

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	jdm314 2008-05-19 10:50 pm UTC (link)
	Absolutely. It would be a very rare situation where someone adding me would bother me, though I do always appreciate getting an introduction! I'll try to check out your journal later today. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Mini Sitemap:

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…